changes of phases

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bartnlb
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

changes of phases

Postby bartnlb » Sun May 03, 2015 4:26 am

i am under the impression that when you play in the last phase of a turn, you are in the advantage, because you can take lands from others, and then you receive more money than the others since you have more lands, than the others regain there lands, but since you got more money you can more easily take control again over these lands, and so once again you get more money...

anyone can confirm or say otherwise?

Is there some compensation for this fact in the games?

Could we change phases like every 10 or 5 turns or something?

So that its not allways the same player who plays just before the cash per country is payed?

Thanks for your answers!

Bart


bartnlb
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

Re: changes of phases

Postby bartnlb » Sun May 03, 2015 4:54 am

Or that everyone gets the money for the most countries they had in the last turn

so for example:

Player 1 turn 1 had 30 countries max in the turn
Player 2 turn 2 had 32 countries max in the turn
Player 3 turn 3 had 40 max in the turn

at the end of the turn

player one has 24
player 2 30
and player 3 40

now they would get 50 per country at the end of the turn which is beneficial to be last in the turn
if it would change to what i suggest the difference of place in the turn becomes smaller...

bartnlb
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

Re: changes of phases

Postby bartnlb » Sun May 03, 2015 5:56 am

E_I_PI

Elsewhere on the forum on suggestions topic i see this reply from you on making starts more fair:

Quote: "I did consider this when recoding the site, and decided that the best way to balance things is to completely suppress zone bonuses unless you have held all the territories in the zone for a full round. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to get a zone bonus during Round 1, which means you can't "drop" with a bonus in hand - the other player(s) will always have an equal opporunity (i.e. - just as much starting income) to break the bonus before it is received for the first time."

"
End quote

maybe you could code the game to do the same for payments of territory held, 50 per country held for minimum 1 turn only?

That would make a big difference in during turn captures back and forth ... in current situation

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e_i_pi
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Re: changes of phases

Postby e_i_pi » Sun May 03, 2015 8:53 am

bartnlb wrote:i am under the impression that when you play in the last phase of a turn, you are in the advantage, because you can take lands from others, and then you receive more money than the others since you have more lands, than the others regain there lands, but since you got more money you can more easily take control again over these lands, and so once again you get more money...

anyone can confirm or say otherwise?

The problem with this is that it's just an impression. When a game starts, each player gets equal gold, equal movement points, and equal armies. No-one has an advantage in that respect. Even if you go last in the turn, you still don't have an advantage. If it's a 1v1 game (the simplest example), and you start with 20 territories each, if player 1 takes 3 territories, player 2 has to take 3 territories just to be even. Going second is not advantageous, just different.

Is there some compensation for this fact in the games?

In terms of territory bonuses, there is no compensation, but for zone bonuses there is.

Could we change phases like every 10 or 5 turns or something?

So that its not allways the same player who plays just before the cash per country is payed?

That would immediately introduce unfairness into the equation, which is against the spirit of what your concern is in the first place

Or that everyone gets the money for the most countries they had in the last turn

so for example:

Player 1 turn 1 had 30 countries max in the turn
Player 2 turn 2 had 32 countries max in the turn
Player 3 turn 3 had 40 max in the turn

at the end of the turn

player one has 24
player 2 30
and player 3 40

now they would get 50 per country at the end of the turn which is beneficial to be last in the turn
if it would change to what i suggest the difference of place in the turn becomes smaller...

This suggestion is a bit different, not one that I've heard before, but I believe it is also flawed. This suggestion encourages players to simply go for broke and take as many territories as possible without trying to hold onto them. It degrades strategic play by rewarding players that attack as much as possible, which would be to the detriment of players that play carefully. It also means that multiple bonuses can be generated for the same territory/zone per turn, which I think is against the spirit of how bonuses work.

Elsewhere on the forum on suggestions topic i see this reply from you on making starts more fair:

Quote: "I did consider this when recoding the site, and decided that the best way to balance things is to completely suppress zone bonuses unless you have held all the territories in the zone for a full round. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to get a zone bonus during Round 1, which means you can't "drop" with a bonus in hand - the other player(s) will always have an equal opporunity (i.e. - just as much starting income) to break the bonus before it is received for the first time."


maybe you could code the game to do the same for payments of territory held, 50 per country held for minimum 1 turn only?

That would make a big difference in during turn captures back and forth ... in current situation

Yes, zone bonuses can only be generated upon holding the territories for a full turn, but this won't work with territory bonuses. Let me give an example:

We have a map of the world with 6 territories - North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Australia. Player 1 starts with NA, SA and Africa. Player 2 starts with Europe, Asia, Australia. Round 1 starts, and each player gets 0 gold per territory because they haven't held the territory for a full round (it wouldn't matter if they get gold up front, we'll see the problem in a moment). Player 1 captures Asia, and then ends their turn. Player 2 captures Asia back, and then ends their turn. At this point, each player has the same territories as when they started, but player 1 has held NA/SA/Africa for a whole turn, but player 2 has held only Europe/Australia for a whole turn - Asia has not been held for a full turn. Player 1 has the advantage even though in all fairness both players are on equal footing.

--------------------------

In order to change the code on territory bonuses, I need to be convinced that there is an advantage to going last. That means I need a rock solid use case that demonstrates that the player that has gone last has the upper hand solely because they have gone last. I have thought about this situation quite a bit - I didn't just slap that bonus code together overnight and then wash my hands of it, I thought on it for several weeks, and came up with the current system as being the best solution. It may not be the best solution, I'm not claiming to have perfected it.

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e_i_pi
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Re: changes of phases

Postby e_i_pi » Sun May 03, 2015 8:58 am

Out of interest I dumped out the database data into Excel and created some pivot tables to have a look at the data, and made these findings

2 phase games
Phase 1 players - 255 wins
Phase 2 players - 272 wins

3 phase games
Phase 1 players - 112 wins
Phase 2 players - 104 wins
Phase 2 players - 103 wins

4 phase games
Phase 1 players - 47 wins
Phase 2 players - 47 wins
Phase 3 players - 38 wins
Phase 4 players - 44 wins

5 phase games
Phase 1 players - 29 wins
Phase 2 players - 14 wins
Phase 3 players - 23 wins
Phase 4 players - 21 wins
Phase 5 players - 11 wins

So, as you can see it's all reasonably even. Sure there are some outliers (like in 5 phase games) but that is down to there being not much data. Kind of like when you roll a dice 6 times - one number is likely to come up more than once - the dice aren't loaded, that's just the way things happened.

bartnlb
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

Re: changes of phases

Postby bartnlb » Sun May 03, 2015 9:09 am

Thanks for your interesting replies and data :) i see that apparently in numbers there is no advantage in going last, i am talking manely about game 991 where i have been able to concour lands and regularly they have taken my lands of my hands before the money is dealt 50 per country, which puts me in a less favourable situation, maybe i am under a false impression :)

i did not understand your following reply:

quote:
Yes, zone bonuses can only be generated upon holding the territories for a full turn, but this won't work with territory bonuses. Let me give an example:

We have a map of the world with 6 territories - North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Australia. Player 1 starts with NA, SA and Africa. Player 2 starts with Europe, Asia, Australia. Round 1 starts, and each player gets 0 gold per territory because they haven't held the territory for a full round (it wouldn't matter if they get gold up front, we'll see the problem in a moment). Player 1 captures Asia, and then ends their turn. Player 2 captures Asia back, and then ends their turn. At this point, each player has the same territories as when they started, but player 1 has held NA/SA/Africa for a whole turn, but player 2 has held only Europe/Australia for a whole turn - Asia has not been held for a full turn. Player 1 has the advantage even though in all fairness both players are on equal footing.

end quote

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e_i_pi
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Re: changes of phases

Postby e_i_pi » Sun May 03, 2015 11:07 am

Well, if player 1 captures Asia and player 2 captures it back, then it hasn't been held for a full turn by either player. So player 1 has held 3 territories for a full turn, and player 2 has only held 2 territories full for a full turn. But both players have 3 territories at the start of turn 2, so it's an unfair advantage to player 1

bartnlb
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Re: changes of phases

Postby bartnlb » Sun May 03, 2015 5:45 pm

i see what you mean, it's hard to find a fair system...

i was not talking about continents but about land just to be clear ;)

anyway you can close the topic if you want, i shared my idea's in case you agree you can use them for inspiration ;)

Bart

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e_i_pi
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Re: Players going first at disadvantage

Postby e_i_pi » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:37 pm

e_i_pi wrote:In order to change the code on territory bonuses, I need to be convinced that there is an advantage to going last. That means I need a rock solid use case that demonstrates that the player that has gone last has the upper hand solely because they have gone last. I have thought about this situation quite a bit - I didn't just slap that bonus code together overnight and then wash my hands of it, I thought on it for several weeks, and came up with the current system as being the best solution. It may not be the best solution, I'm not claiming to have perfected it.


Righto, I've managed to finally figure out what the problem is!

Say you have a four player game, where players 1 and 2 both play in the first turn, and they are at war with each other. If player 1 takes their turn immediately, and player 2 waits until the end, then player 2 will always have the advantage in that they will have pick and choice of whether they capture back their broken zones, and/or break player 1's zones. It is possible for player 2 to constantly have the upper hand in this scenario.

This is a pretty major issue, as it discourages players playing immediately. I would welcome any suggestions of how to fix this, and have stickied the topic as a result

nixie
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:03 am

Re: changes of phases

Postby nixie » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:05 am

I can't see any option but single player phases.

There is an additional issue where by two players in the same phase can be active at the same time. This allows for one to 'interfere' with the others turn as they try to play.


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