Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

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e_i_pi
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Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby e_i_pi » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:30 pm

Hi all,

Along with changes to the Medieval Era, there will be changes to the Medieval Europe game. I have four proposals, the first three are kinda boring, so I'll get them out of the way first:

Minor alterations to troop counts on neutral territories
Some Empires have it easy from the start (e.g. Ireland, Iceland, Zenatan Caliphate, others near the edge of the map) so I was thinking of increasing the neutral territory count on several territories. This would involve placing 1 or two armies more on a few key territories, nothing major. The number of troops put down would be determined by the win % of each faction, and the main troop deployments will be on sea territories up north and African territories down south.

Income type 50 per territory, 250 minimum
I hate this income type, it makes the game massively imbalanced towards Empires that can easily capture lots of territories from the start, especially coastal territories. I'd like to change this to 25 gold per territory, 250 minimum. This would still mean large empires get a territory bonus, but it would take 4+ rounds to get that bonus up, which gives everyone enough time to expand

Different default win condition
The current win condition is 12 cities of which 3 must be religious. I'd like to have another option, "8 Cities, of which 2 are religious". This will make for quicker games, and would encourage diplomacy and pacts a lot more. I would make this the default win condition option, though the old option would still be available when creating a game.

Troop cost bonuses and penalties by faction
This may be a controversial change, but I think it's necessary in order to get factions deploying troops logical to that faction. Each Faction would have certain troops cheaper, and other troops more expensive. Below is the table showing relative costs. For instance, Viking Cavalry would cost 10% more, as would Viking Siege, but Viking Navy would cost 20% less.

Code: Select all

             I     C     N     F     S
Celts       +10   -10   +10   -10    0
Vikings      0    +10   -20    0    +10
Roman CC     0     0     0    -10   +10
Eastern OC   0     0    +10   -10    0
Byzantine    0    +10   -10   +10   -10
Turkic HT    0    -20   +10   +10    0
Islam        0     0     0    +10   -10
Moors       -10   +10    0     0     0

I think this change would positively affect the strategy of factions quite a bit. For instance, the Turkic Horse Tribes would deploy lots more Cavalry because it would be cheaper. This would be the cost of Cavalry for the various factions:
    Turkic HT: 77 Gold
    Celts: 86 Gold
    Roman CC, Eastern OC, Islam: 96 Gold
    Vikings, Byzantine, Moors: 106 Gold

All thoughts, suggestions and feedback is welcome!


Sargon
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby Sargon » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:21 am

Minor alterations to troop counts on neutral terrirotries: I'm assuming here that this is a one-time change based on the current percentages. Otherwise you would have to be changing it every few months based on the percentages which may change in the future! But, yes, I agree there needs to be more "resistance" for some territories, although I think one or two armies might not be enough (if you are talking about infantry).

Income type 50 per territory, 250 minimum: Yeah, it's very unbalanced for some factions, as things are currently. It's easy to rack up wins with certain factions (Kingdom of Alba, Almoravid Dynasty, Volga Bulgaria, etc.), and this income type makes it even easier. With the changes being implemented, this income type might still be possible, if the factions are more balanced, but I still think 50 is too much. 25 is good, 20 is even better.

Different default win condition: Okay with me.

Troop cost bonuses/penalties by faction: Fantastic idea! :D :D :D I've actually always wanted this, since now each faction has special properties. I see that you've balanced everything horizontally and vertically in the chart, which is great. The only caution I have is to ensure that this flows well with the other changes regarding the new battle types/rules - we wouldn't want one faction completely overrun by another faction due to changes. :) I think that the numbers should be doubled though. 10 or 20 is nothing compared to an income of 500. I recommend 20 and 40 (for both positive and negative).

I would like to have a look at the chart later and comment again, but for me, the Celts getting penalized for navy doesn't seem right somehow.

Sargon

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e_i_pi
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby e_i_pi » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:51 am

Sargon wrote:Troop cost bonuses/penalties by faction: Fantastic idea! :D :D :D I've actually always wanted this, since now each faction has special properties. I see that you've balanced everything horizontally and vertically in the chart, which is great. The only caution I have is to ensure that this flows well with the other changes regarding the new battle types/rules - we wouldn't want one faction completely overrun by another faction due to changes. :) I think that the numbers should be doubled though. 10 or 20 is nothing compared to an income of 500. I recommend 20 and 40 (for both positive and negative).

Remember the 10 and 20 is actually 10% and 20%. I think 20 and 40 would run the risk of imbalancing it too much.

I would like to have a look at the chart later and comment again, but for me, the Celts getting penalized for navy doesn't seem right somehow.

The Celts had rubbish navy, that's why the Vikings overran them. In the 300 or so year history of Vikings invading Britain and France, there is one recorded win by the defending country.

Anyhow, these bonuses/penalties would have to be applied at an Empire level, which is separate to Scenarios. So those numbers given above would be roughly estimates for the Factions, and they would adjust slightly depending on the Empire. For the Vikings, it might look something like this:
    Iceland: +10 C, -20 N, +10 S
    Norway: +10 C, -20 N, +10 S
    Finland: +10 C, -10 N
    Sweden: -10 N, +10 S
    Denmark: -10 N, +10 S
This would also mean teamwork is more important in team games, as you'd want to deploy the cheap troops with the relevant Empires and them transfer them to your teammates.

Sargon
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby Sargon » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:09 pm

Remember the 10 and 20 is actually 10% and 20%. I think 20 and 40 would run the risk of imbalancing it too much.


Yeah, I misread it.

The Celts had rubbish navy, that's why the Vikings overran them. In the 300 or so year history of Vikings invading Britain and France, there is one recorded win by the defending country.

Anyhow, these bonuses/penalties would have to be applied at an Empire level, which is separate to Scenarios. So those numbers given above would be roughly estimates for the Factions, and they would adjust slightly depending on the Empire. For the Vikings, it might look something like this:

Iceland: +10 C, -20 N, +10 S
Norway: +10 C, -20 N, +10 S
Finland: +10 C, -10 N
Sweden: -10 N, +10 S
Denmark: -10 N, +10 S

This would also mean teamwork is more important in team games, as you'd want to deploy the cheap troops with the relevant Empires and them transfer them to your teammates."


I understand. My mind was thinking of more recent times regarding England's navies ... but I also was thinking about the game situation and the fact that the British Isles were surrounded by water. But again, it will be exciting once it's implemented. :D

Applying these adjustments to empires is even better. :mrgreen:

Sargon

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e_i_pi
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby e_i_pi » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:15 am

I'm thinking of putting in limited deployments per turn on Medieval Europe, say 4-6 per turn. It wouldn't work in the old Medieval Era as your Cavalry are sacrificed early, but in the new version it will work fine as your cheapest troops are the first to go into battle. Thoughts?

Sargon
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby Sargon » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:30 pm

From my Risk playing experiences, this will lead to longer games, which I don't have a problem with, but some might.

Could we have this as an option that could be checked, for example, like the income selection?

Sargon

Nillythekid
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby Nillythekid » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:28 pm

I'm a bit late to the party, but would these changes be optional? I feel like some people might not like the changes as much and they might like the option to play the good-old-fashioned version.

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e_i_pi
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby e_i_pi » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:39 pm

Nillythekid wrote:I'm a bit late to the party, but would these changes be optional? I feel like some people might not like the changes as much and they might like the option to play the good-old-fashioned version.

Better late than never :)

Not all changes are going in this release, as I think introducing too much change at once will alienate people and also run the risk of grossly imbalancing the game. The release will be happening next weekend, and this is what's going out:

Minor alterations to troop counts on neutral territories - This will be going out, and will be a very minor change. I estimate around 12-15 territories to be affected, mostly sea territories, in the order of 1 extra troop in each.

Income type 50 per territory, 250 minimum - This change will definitely be going out, the change being to a 25 per territory set up.

Different default win condition - This change will also definitely be going out. I imagine I'll introduce a few new win condition types, not just the 8/2 type described in the original post.

Update to v3 of Medieval Era - This will definitely be going out and will be the major change. Medieval Era v3 increases the number of battles from 18 to 47. There are a much wider range of battles for sieges - instead of 3 types (Siege, Bombard, Siege by sea) there are now around 15 types. There are also a wider range of land battles whose availability depends on the attacking armies troops and defending armies troops. Cavalry has been made more powerful, and siege engines play a much greater role. Forts are also much less susceptible to being destroyed, meaning they will be captured far more frequently and essentially become permanent fixtures in the game once they are deployed. Most sieges don't damage forts, some can damage a single fort, and there are of course bombard options to purposely destroy forts. To find out more you can either go to the discussion thread or go to the project to see the changes in detail.

Troop cost bonuses and penalties by faction - Not going out. The code for this is more than I can handle this release, and it also runs the risk of heavily imbalancing the game. I'd prefer to see how the new release goes, then adjust from there.

Limited deployments per turn - Not going out. I may consider it as an option in a future release, but not for now.

Nillythekid
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby Nillythekid » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:01 am

Will the changes take effect in games already being played or only in games that are created after the update?

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e_i_pi
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Re: Medieval Europe v2 Discussion Thread

Postby e_i_pi » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:06 am

Only newly created games will be affected


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