replacing dices

Discussion on Dice Projects for Art of War
bartnlb
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

replacing dices

Postby bartnlb » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:14 pm

i would like to see a game without dices, where the best army wins, on quality and numbers...

Can you create this?


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e_i_pi
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: replacing dices

Postby e_i_pi » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:08 pm

Yeah, that might be a little way down the track. The engine can handle this, but I need to get project code transferred over from the old codebase first.

bartnlb
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby bartnlb » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:25 pm

thanks for the replie :) are there others interested in this?

WetWipes
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:52 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby WetWipes » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:04 am

bartnlb wrote:thanks for the replie :) are there others interested in this?

Well I just joined so ill defer judgement but it does seem like a pretty good idea

bartnlb
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:02 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby bartnlb » Sat May 16, 2015 11:37 pm

when i have bad rolls i like to see something else than dices ;)

Sargon
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:46 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby Sargon » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:05 am

bartnlb wrote:i would like to see a game without dices, where the best army wins, on quality and numbers...

Can you create this?


I've been on the receiving end of some very bad dice rolls extremely often (losing 4 units out of 4 on a 5v4 MULTIPLE times :evil: :evil: :evil: ). I understand the dice are random, although sometimes I wonder if there's a problem with the number generator.

That being said however, I'm not sure if the "best army wins" is actually fair. I'm sure it's common knowledge that some empires can build up much quicker and faster than others, die rolls being equal. In a sense, the die rolls can actually level the playing field somewhat.

Your idea has a lot of merit though: from what I understand the medieval rules may change soon anyway to make cavalry more strong. Since cavalry is so expensive, I think they may be getting a change in ability. The price for cavalry is fine; I think they might be made more strong against infantry. Personally I think that would be a much better solution ... and it can alleviate the die roll randomness too somewhat. :D

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e_i_pi
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Re: replacing dices

Postby e_i_pi » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:36 am

Sargon wrote:I've been on the receiving end of some very bad dice rolls extremely often (losing 4 units out of 4 on a 5v4 MULTIPLE times :evil: :evil: :evil: ). I understand the dice are random, although sometimes I wonder if there's a problem with the number generator.

There's not a problem with the generator, it's just a bad series of rolls. If I flip a coin 10 times and it comes up heads 10 times, I don't accuse the coin of being rigged. Keep in mind that these dice rolls have exactly the same odds:
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
4 2 6 3 4 2 1 5 2 6
You don't look at the second set and think there's a problem.

That being said however, I'm not sure if the "best army wins" is actually fair. I'm sure it's common knowledge that some empires can build up much quicker and faster than others, die rolls being equal. In a sense, the die rolls can actually level the playing field somewhat.

If you've played the game Diplomacy, you'd know what the OP is talking about here. Imagine a game where you have limited armies across the entire board, say 12 armies total. In order to capture an enemy territory, you need to outnumber the defending armies by one. The win is automatic.

I think this idea definitely has some merit, especially if you make combat not as important, by including rules where you have to amass trading fleets and cities instead.

Your idea has a lot of merit though: from what I understand the medieval rules may change soon anyway to make cavalry more strong. Since cavalry is so expensive, I think they may be getting a change in ability. The price for cavalry is fine; I think they might be made more strong against infantry. Personally I think that would be a much better solution ... and it can alleviate the die roll randomness too somewhat. :D

Medieval will be changing in the next month or so, I'm already working on converting Era Projects to the new codebase, which will be released in the next couple of weeks. Improvements to Era Projects will include "company" troops that move on a successful capture (e.g. when you launch a naval attack), specific line-up troops having special dice (e.g. - forts being unkillable in certain battles, so they remain even after the territory is captured), and bonuses to specific line-up troops )e.g. - cavalry will get +1 to their dice in "open field" battles). I'm still nutting out all the details of Medieval changes, but it looks like there will be a fair amount of changes to improve the game balance.

Sargon
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:46 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby Sargon » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:58 am

e_i_pi wrote:There's not a problem with the generator, it's just a bad series of rolls. If I flip a coin 10 times and it comes up heads 10 times, I don't accuse the coin of being rigged. Keep in mind that these dice rolls have exactly the same odds:
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
4 2 6 3 4 2 1 5 2 6
You don't look at the second set and think there's a problem.



Yes I know the odds are the same. I was being partially sarcastic. It's just frustrating. :cry:

e_i_pi wrote:If you've played the game Diplomacy, you'd know what the OP is talking about here. Imagine a game where you have limited armies across the entire board, say 12 armies total. In order to capture an enemy territory, you need to outnumber the defending armies by one. The win is automatic. I think this idea definitely has some merit, especially if you make combat not as important, by including rules where you have to amass trading fleets and cities instead.



I know what the OP is talking about (unless I am really off the mark). I just think that one extra infantry (if that is what constitutes an "army") is not really a fair way to decide a battle. There are many historical examples where smaller armies have taken down larger ones. Happens a lot here too. :)

Don't you think that a 'one-army advantage take-over' would take away from the glorious victories? Of course, I don't know what your ultimate vision is.

I haven't played Diplomacy. Maybe I should go and buy it. :D

e_i_pi wrote:Medieval will be changing in the next month or so, I'm already working on converting Era Projects to the new codebase, which will be released in the next couple of weeks. Improvements to Era Projects will include "company" troops that move on a successful capture (e.g. when you launch a naval attack), specific line-up troops having special dice (e.g. - forts being unkillable in certain battles, so they remain even after the territory is captured), and bonuses to specific line-up troops )e.g. - cavalry will get +1 to their dice in "open field" battles). I'm still nutting out all the details of Medieval changes, but it looks like there will be a fair amount of changes to improve the game balance.



I'm getting excited just reading about it. :mrgreen:

Sargon

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e_i_pi
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Re: replacing dices

Postby e_i_pi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:34 pm

Sargon wrote:I know what the OP is talking about (unless I am really off the mark). I just think that one extra infantry (if that is what constitutes an "army") is not really a fair way to decide a battle. There are many historical examples where smaller armies have taken down larger ones. Happens a lot here too. :)

Don't you think that a 'one-army advantage take-over' would take away from the glorious victories? Of course, I don't know what your ultimate vision is.

I haven't played Diplomacy. Maybe I should go and buy it. :D

This is where we could introduce cards as well, so you'd have a card which guarantees victory. Strategic use of cards is much less luck driven than dice.

I'm getting excited just reading about it. :mrgreen:

It's still a little way off, there's a lot of work just to port Era Projects over to the new codebase, including database changes that require heaps of testing. The introduction of new Era Battle attributes also complicates things. I'm working hard on this stuff, but if I'm not on schedule, please bear with me, it's difficult code to work through to the point that it's 100% working :)

Sargon
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:46 am

Re: replacing dices

Postby Sargon » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:02 pm

No problem. I'm still having fun. :D

Better to do something properly and do it right rather than rush through it and have a lot of problems.

Sargon


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